Atheism vs Christianity: 25 new messages in 14 topics

Atheism vs Christianity
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity?hl=en

Atheism-vs-Christianity@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: as an atheist...
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/5227a972ba3e1f85?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 7:24 am
From: Dave

On Apr 25, 12:18 am, Alan Wostenberg <awo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 23, 7:57 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Apr 23, 4:44 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
>
> > <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > It doesn't follow that there is no atheist who has ever prayed.
>
> > Prayed to what? Some may have prayed before they deconverted, but what
> > the hell would an Atheist pray to?
>
> To God.

Atheists do not believe in gods and wouldn't be praying to something
they do not believe exists.

> Just as NASA inscribed messages onto plaques on Voyager not
> knowing any aliens are out there, so the atheist can pray to God, not
> knowing He is there.

Only a complete idiot would use logic like that.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 7:55 am
From: Medusa

Max;

> When I was six or seven, I prayed to Santa for a new bike, a
> wristwatch, the new hot wheels set, a Stuart Surridge cricket bat and
> the F111 model I wanted to build. (Shows you how old I am)
>
> But then I learnt that it was my Mum & Dad who bought the presents, so
> I gave up on Santa.

Yep. I believed in Santa, too.

To quote Courtney Love, "I don't really miss God. but I sure miss
Santa Claus. . ."

Medusa

==============================================================================
TOPIC: GOD or Pathetic insecurity
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/6e35f7051a2dc3cf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 7:31 am
From: Neil Kelsey

On Apr 23, 8:51 am, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Well, I'm not speaking for anybody.

Well, you were. I guess I need to remind you what you said in your
first post:

"Well bunty,insecurity it's one of atheist problem they'r not secure
within themself..."

Then you said in a later person that you can't know how someone else
feels. Yet here you are saying you know how atheists feel- they feel
"insecure." Which is it? Can you know how someone else feels or can't
you? Or do you prefer to keep contradicting yourself?

> it's just my opinion why you dont
> believe
> if you have nothing to loose.
> if you have everything to loos then what
> it's?
> I'm not expecting you to tel me, so dont boder to try to divert it..

I'd first have to know what you're talking about.

> On Apr 23, 2:28 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 23, 5:53 am, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > No it's reality, you can't feel what other person feel. So you dont
> > > know.
>
> > Then how would you know atheists feel "insecure"?
>
> > > you only know, what you feel, or what other tel you, but you still
> > > dont know.
> > > And remamber everything We do is to make ourself feel good.
> > > So you can't speak for someone else feeling can you? is this a game?
> > > sure No.
>
> > Then why were you speaking for someone else's feelings? Not just
> > someone else, but millions of people?
>
> > > On Apr 22, 6:23 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 22, 10:20 am, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Well bunty,insecurity it's one of atheist problem they'r not
> > > > > secure within themself, and they cause that to happen, to themselves
> > > > > If you dont believe in God, you'r on your own. like an impty shalves,
> > > > > and you wonder wether the believers feel like you do.And remamber
> > > > > everything is to do with what they feel after they prey to God.
> > > > > Because you dont know you can't coment about it, can you?
>
> > > > Is this some kind of Scrabble game?
>
> > > > > On Apr 19, 2:45 pm, Bunta <pointst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > It seems to me that when a Human form needs some back up they invent a
> > > > > > God to help them get over the particular problem. When a person has
> > > > > > some dire episode in their life and can not cope with it by
> > > > > > themselves, they seek some thing to rest on , they prey to God, how
> > > > > > weak is that . Lets see now , how cheap is that sort of relief, it
> > > > > > costs nothing to prey to God , and yet nothing has changed
> > > > > > physically , just mentally , so in actual fact any time I have an
> > > > > > episode that I can not handle I will just prey to God and wella! I get
> > > > > > some instant response from God , or do I just have some sort of mental
> > > > > > episode ,and imaagine that I am speaking to some thing out there .
> > > > > > What I am really trying to say is that God is just an imaginary cop
> > > > > > out by weak physically and mentally people , and because of these
> > > > > > weakness more diligent persons use that to instill fear into them
> > > > > > ( ie; religeous leaders ) and of course the rest is history . In
> > > > > > actual Gods were invented by more mentally and physically stronger
> > > > > > persons to control the weak . All people who believe in god are
> > > > > > just weaklings , and they will not inherit the earth period.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:03 am
From: hopeforpeace687

God is Love, You can call him anything you like
No matter what religion or non-religion you are or what you think
There he is.

On Apr 19, 8:45 am, Bunta <pointst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems to me that when a Human form needs some back up they invent a
> God to help them get over the particular problem. When a person has
> some dire episode in their life and can not cope with it by
> themselves, they seek some thing to rest on , they prey to God, how
> weak is that . Lets see now , how cheap is that sort of relief, it
> costs nothing to prey to God , and yet nothing has changed
> physically , just mentally , so in actual fact any time I have an
> episode that I can not handle I will just prey to God and wella! I get
> some instant response from God , or do I just have some sort of mental
> episode ,and imaagine that I am speaking to some thing out there .
> What I am really trying to say is that God is just an imaginary cop
> out by weak physically and mentally people , and because of these
> weakness more diligent persons use that to instill fear into them
> ( ie; religeous leaders ) and of course the rest is history . In
> actual Gods were invented by more mentally and physically stronger
> persons to control the weak . All people who believe in god are
> just weaklings , and they will not inherit the earth period.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:13 am
From: "Keith MacNevins"

I agree and I suppose I'll have to face the music one of these days.
Twenty-two year olds are so immature!

On 4/25/08, Bunta <pointsturt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'll try not to use colourful expletives,
> as the others have.
> Just answer the question. Yes, or No
> By the way I beleive that most Homosexuals
> are just confused about what really makes them
> a practising homosexual .
> I am not homophobic, but draw the line at people
> taking advantage of the under age, and people of
> lesser expierence, who I might add are usually young.
>
> On Apr 24, 11:20 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 24, 6:10 am, Bunta <pointst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Let me get this right ,
> >
> > > and I quote
> >
> > > I keep trying to get pregnant, but it doesn't work with two guys.
> >
> > > Oh !! brother !!,, someone pinch me,
> >
> > > Not only do I have to deal with Theists, and Atheists,
> >
> > > we now have the possibility of dealing with
> >
> > > a homosexual theist's point of view.
> >
> > > someone correct me please ..!
> >
> > I'll correct you. Stop being an idiot.
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Apr 24, 12:18 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > I keep trying to get pregnant, but it doesn't work with two guys.
> >
> > > > On 4/23/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Apr 23, 8:55 am, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > Not enough is not enough.
> >
> > > > > I sure hope you're not planning to have children. What a mindfuck
> that
> > > > > would be to have you as a parent.
> >
> > > > > > On 4/23/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > On Apr 22, 9:12 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > I may be a big pee pee but it is you who are the biggest poo
> poo.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > are so
> > > > > > > > shallow and superficial that you can't see how shallow and
> > > > > superficial
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > are. It is common sense that if humans may one day evolve
> into
> > > > > godlike
> > > > > > > > beings that such a thing may have happened already on a
> different
> > > > > > > planet.
> >
> > > > > > > Maybe if you'd read beyond the childish insults that you seem
> to
> > > > > > > enjoy, you might have found that I actually agree with you (to
> a
> > > > > > > certain extent).
> >
> > > > > > > > On 4/22/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > On Apr 21, 9:52 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <
> kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > What's hilarious about what humans may go on to become
> millions
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > years
> > > > > > > > > > from now? It is a reasonable thing to suppose, that we
> may
> > > > > become
> > > > > > > > > godlike.
> > > > > > > > > > And yes it does explain a lot. You are just shallow,
> > > > > superficial,
> > > > > > > > > > narrow-minded and a stick-in-the-mud.
> >
> > > > > > > > > And you're a big pee pee poo poo. Whatever.
> >
> > > > > > > > > In case you don't realize it (and I'm sure you don't), you
> are
> > > > > > > > > describing natural evolution and implying that God is a
> product of
> > > > > > > > > evolution (how can the product of a process occur at the
> beginning
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > a process?). However, I happen to agree with you here: I
> think the
> > > > > > > > > goal of an intelligent species, once they can articluate
> it, is to
> > > > > > > > > become immortal, omniscient, omnipotent- all the attributes
> they
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > one point attributed to deities. Deities are just primitive
> wish
> > > > > > > > > projections that cultures cling to long after they're shown
> to be
> > > > > > > > > impossible. We make them up and give them the attributes
> we'd like
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > have. With that in mind, it's kind of interesting that
> you're
> > > > > > > > > currently justifying the Christian God behaving like a
> sadistic
> > > > > > > > > monster in another thread.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > On 4/21/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 21, 10:28 am, "Keith MacNevins" <
> kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just what makes you think God is not an
> extraterrestrial
> > > > > alien
> > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > > happens
> > > > > > > > > > > > to be a superior sentient being? What is the
> desination of
> > > > > > > humans?
> > > > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > > > hundred million years ( a teeny click in cosmic time
> ) what
> > > > > do
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > suppose
> > > > > > > > > > > > humans will evolve into? For instance, scientists say
> that
> > > > > we
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > gradually
> > > > > > > > > > > > come to have only four toes on each foot, and perhaps
> the
> > > > > human
> > > > > > > > > brain
> > > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > become larger and more advanced. And what else? Will
> we seed
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > planets
> > > > > > > > > > > > from aboard a huge space cruiser like an ocean liner
> in
> > > > > space?
> > > > > > > Won't
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > as gods ourselves?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > So you think travelling on ocean liners in space is
> what gods
> > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > > Explains a lot, actually.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > You are better off sticking to your usual lame ad
> hominems
> > > > > rather
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > trying to have a normal conversation. That way others
> won't
> > > > > know
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > your hilarious hallucinations.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/21/08, Bunta <pointst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah ! I see I have your attention ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > its always easy to go for the brain.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Its always easy to accept God because its always
> been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > there for you rest upon .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could believe in god , because everytime I
> would
> > > > > come
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up with somthing that I did not understand
> Scientifically,
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > otherwise,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I could just say " Its was God that did it ! "
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Every time there is some adversity in my life
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I could just call upon the lord , maybe in a prayer
> I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > ask
> > > > > > > > > him
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > help me , and woosh ! its all fixed up. Bah !!!
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > NOBODY !!!!! CAN CONVINCE ME THAT THERE IS A
> GOD......
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Alright lets give God bashing a rest. What about
> Satan
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Demons,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are they not also a part of "gods" kingdom ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As you know , I am into the Alien thing , and I
> hold
> > > > > > > strongly to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is it not feasible that when early believers of
> god , had
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unusual expierence
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that they just invented a Demon or decided to call
> it
> > > > > Satan or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > whatever ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and what they were really having was a some sort of
> > > > > > > interaction
> > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > an Alien .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The bible ( and other ancient books ) is full of
> accounts
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > man
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > alien interaction , they just chose to call
> > > > > > > > > > > > > some of them , the good ones, God, angels,
> prophets, jesus
> > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > miracles , and the ones that were perceived
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as bad or unexplainable , as satan or demonic or
> bad
> > > > > angels.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > We are all past thinking about God and Demons etc ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > what we must look forward to, is what will happen
> to this
> > > > > > > planet
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > its present course of destruction,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > caused by " Man " .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bullshit !!!! no man, women ,or child, is
> really
> > > > > > > responsible
> > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we have just adapted Alien
> > > > > > > > > > > > > technology to suit our greed ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The planet earth will , at this present pace will
> self
> > > > > > > destruct .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > We do have some hope , in the form of interplanetry
> > > > > travel,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and of course with the help of Aliens . And NOT
> god .
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 21, 2:49 am, "Keith MacNevins" <
> > > > > kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I read your post, I see that you are
> addressing the
> > > > > > > subject
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > God,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not merely of man. Indeed, the universe belongs
> to God,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > are a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > part of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > creation. Rather obvious if you really care to
> think
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > Of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > course, it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps if you have a brain, and not bunta fodder.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/19/08, Bunta <pointst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I see what goes on in this world , I see
> all
> > > > > things
> > > > > > > done
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > man ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not by a God.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I go to work in the morning , I go to work
> for
> > > > > man ,
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I write on this computer , It is man made,
> not
> > > > > God
> > > > > > > made.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you see it is very simple , all man ,
> no God.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now ! let us not enter into the discussion into
> > > > > > > > > your definition
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of what you think is a God.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't we discuss what really is out
> there in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > cosmos,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and what has happened on planet Earth.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alien intervention, or visitations , or
> interaction .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Already you expose yourself to been weak of
> the mind
> > > > > ,
> > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you are challenged physically as well .
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 20, 2:36 am, "Keith MacNevins" <
> > > > > > > kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We will know the truth one day. Do you admit
> that it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > conceivable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> >
> > ...
> >
> > read more >>- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
> >
>

--
Ambassador From Hell

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:20 am
From: Neil Kelsey

On Apr 24, 8:20 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes. My mother had some small experience with the Roman Catholic Church as a
> child and it was entirely negative. My grandfather on my father's side was
> anti-Roman Catholic, and even went so far as to change his name from
> McNevins to MacNevins because, as he said, Mcs were more often associated
> with the Roman Catholic Church than Macs.

Are you affiliated with any particular denomination now (do you attend
a particular church)?

> On 4/24/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 24, 2:28 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Relevance?
>
> > Curiousity.
>
> > > I was raised in a Methodist atmosphere. I am self-taught in that
> > > I spent a great deal of time pouring over books in libraries.
>
> > So you went to public school?
>
> > > On 4/24/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 24, 2:07 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I am a liberal Christian and do not subscribe to any particular
> > > > > denomination. Further, I believe in an intelligent interpretation of
> > > > > scripture as applied to the present day that it does not condemn
> > > > > homosexuality, but promiscuity.
>
> > > > Were you raised in a certain denomination? If so, what was it? And did
> > > > you attend a religious school?
>
> > > > > On 4/24/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 23, 8:18 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > I keep trying to get pregnant, but it doesn't work with two guys.
>
> > > > > > Oh, so you're gay. Fine with me, but why would a gay guy want to be
> > > > > > Christian? They don't exactly have a reputation for tolerance. It
> > does
> > > > > > explain all the loathing you demonstrate.
>
> > > > > > > On 4/23/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 8:55 am, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Not enough is not enough.
>
> > > > > > > > I sure hope you're not planning to have children. What a
> > mindfuck
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > would be to have you as a parent.
>
> > > > > > > > > On 4/23/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 9:12 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <
> > kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > I may be a big pee pee but it is you who are the biggest
> > poo
> > > > poo.
> > > > > > > > You
> > > > > > > > > > are so
> > > > > > > > > > > shallow and superficial that you can't see how shallow
> > and
> > > > > > > > superficial
> > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > are. It is common sense that if humans may one day evolve
> > > > into
> > > > > > > > godlike
> > > > > > > > > > > beings that such a thing may have happened already on a
> > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > planet.
>
> > > > > > > > > > Maybe if you'd read beyond the childish insults that you
> > seem
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > enjoy, you might have found that I actually agree with you
> > (to
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > certain extent).
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On 4/22/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 21, 9:52 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <
> > > > kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > What's hilarious about what humans may go on to
> > become
> > > > > > millions
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > years
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from now? It is a reasonable thing to suppose, that
> > we
> > > > may
> > > > > > > > become
> > > > > > > > > > > > godlike.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And yes it does explain a lot. You are just shallow,
> > > > > > > > superficial,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > narrow-minded and a stick-in-the-mud.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > And you're a big pee pee poo poo. Whatever.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > In case you don't realize it (and I'm sure you don't),
> > you
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > describing natural evolution and implying that God is a
> > > > product
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > evolution (how can the product of a process occur at
> > the
> > > > > > beginning
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > a process?). However, I happen to agree with you here:
> > I
> > > > think
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > goal of an intelligent species, once they can
> > articluate
> > > > it, is
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > become immortal, omniscient, omnipotent- all the
> > attributes
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > one point attributed to deities. Deities are just
> > primitive
> > > > > > wish
> > > > > > > > > > > > projections that cultures cling to long after they're
> > shown
> > > > to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > impossible. We make them up and give them the
> > attributes
> > > > we'd
> > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > have. With that in mind, it's kind of interesting that
> > > > you're
> > > > > > > > > > > > currently justifying the Christian God behaving like a
> > > > sadistic
> > > > > > > > > > > > monster in another thread.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/21/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 21, 10:28 am, "Keith MacNevins" <
> > > > > > kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just what makes you think God is not an
> > > > extraterrestrial
> > > > > > > > alien
> > > > > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > happens
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to be a superior sentient being? What is the
> > > > desination
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > humans?
> > > > > > > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hundred million years ( a teeny click in cosmic
> > time
> > > > )
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > suppose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > humans will evolve into? For instance, scientists
> > say
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > gradually
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > come to have only four toes on each foot, and
> > perhaps
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > human
> > > > > > > > > > > > brain
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > become larger and more advanced. And what else?
> > Will
> > > > we
> > > > > > seed
> > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > planets
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from aboard a huge space cruiser like an ocean
> > liner
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > space?
> > > > > > > > > > Won't
> > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as gods ourselves?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you think travelling on ocean liners in space is
> > > > what
> > > > > > gods
> > > > > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explains a lot, actually.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are better off sticking to your usual lame ad
> > > > hominems
> > > > > > > > rather
> > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > trying to have a normal conversation. That way
> > others
> > > > won't
> > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > your hilarious hallucinations.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/21/08, Bunta <pointst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah ! I see I have your attention ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its always easy to go for the brain.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its always easy to accept God because its
> > always
> > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there for you rest upon .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could believe in god , because
> > everytime I
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > come
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up with somthing that I did not understand
> > > > > > Scientifically,
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > otherwise,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could just say " Its was God that did it ! "
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every time there is some adversity in my life
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could just call upon the lord , maybe in a
> > prayer
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > ask
> > > > > > > > > > > > him
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > help me , and woosh ! its all fixed up. Bah
> > !!!
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NOBODY !!!!! CAN CONVINCE ME THAT THERE IS A
> > > > GOD......
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alright lets give God bashing a rest. What
> > about
> > > > > > Satan
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demons,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are they not also a part of "gods" kingdom ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you know , I am into the Alien thing , and
> > I
> > > > hold
> > > > > > > > > > strongly to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is it not feasible that when early believers
> > of
> > > > god ,
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unusual expierence
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that they just invented a Demon or decided to
> > call
> > > > it
> > > > > > > > Satan or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whatever ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and what they were really having was a some
> > sort of
> > > > > > > > > > interaction
> > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an Alien .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bible ( and other ancient books ) is full
> > of
> > > > > > accounts
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > man
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > alien interaction , they just chose to call
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > some of them , the good ones, God, angels,
> > > > prophets,
> > > > > > jesus
> > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > miracles , and the ones that were perceived
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as bad or unexplainable , as satan or demonic
> > or
> > > > bad
> > > > > > > > angels.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are all past thinking about God and Demons
> > etc ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what we must look forward to, is what will
> > happen
> > > > to
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > planet
> > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its present course of destruction,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > caused by " Man " .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bullshit !!!! no man, women ,or child, is
> > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > responsible
>
> ...
>
> read more >>- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:36 am
From: "Keith MacNevins"

I do not affiliate myself directly with any church, nor do I attend church
services. I believe we each owe it to ourselves to seek truth, and I
personally have little time for the inflexible, narrow-minded viewpoints of
most people whether theist or atheist.

On 4/25/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 24, 8:20 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes. My mother had some small experience with the Roman Catholic Church
> as a
> > child and it was entirely negative. My grandfather on my father's side
> was
> > anti-Roman Catholic, and even went so far as to change his name from
> > McNevins to MacNevins because, as he said, Mcs were more often associated
> > with the Roman Catholic Church than Macs.
>
> Are you affiliated with any particular denomination now (do you attend
> a particular church)?
>
> > On 4/24/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Apr 24, 2:28 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Relevance?
> >
> > > Curiousity.
> >
> > > > I was raised in a Methodist atmosphere. I am self-taught in that
> > > > I spent a great deal of time pouring over books in libraries.
> >
> > > So you went to public school?
> >
> > > > On 4/24/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Apr 24, 2:07 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > I am a liberal Christian and do not subscribe to any particular
> > > > > > denomination. Further, I believe in an intelligent interpretation
> of
> > > > > > scripture as applied to the present day that it does not condemn
> > > > > > homosexuality, but promiscuity.
> >
> > > > > Were you raised in a certain denomination? If so, what was it? And
> did
> > > > > you attend a religious school?
> >
> > > > > > On 4/24/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > On Apr 23, 8:18 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > I keep trying to get pregnant, but it doesn't work with two
> guys.
> >
> > > > > > > Oh, so you're gay. Fine with me, but why would a gay guy want
> to be
> > > > > > > Christian? They don't exactly have a reputation for tolerance.
> It
> > > does
> > > > > > > explain all the loathing you demonstrate.
> >
> > > > > > > > On 4/23/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 8:55 am, "Keith MacNevins" <
> kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Not enough is not enough.
> >
> > > > > > > > > I sure hope you're not planning to have children. What a
> > > mindfuck
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > would be to have you as a parent.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > On 4/23/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 9:12 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <
> > > kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I may be a big pee pee but it is you who are the
> biggest
> > > poo
> > > > > poo.
> > > > > > > > > You
> > > > > > > > > > > are so
> > > > > > > > > > > > shallow and superficial that you can't see how
> shallow
> > > and
> > > > > > > > > superficial
> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > are. It is common sense that if humans may one day
> evolve
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > godlike
> > > > > > > > > > > > beings that such a thing may have happened already on
> a
> > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > > planet.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Maybe if you'd read beyond the childish insults that
> you
> > > seem
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > enjoy, you might have found that I actually agree with
> you
> > > (to
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > certain extent).
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/22/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 21, 9:52 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <
> > > > > kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's hilarious about what humans may go on to
> > > become
> > > > > > > millions
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > years
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > from now? It is a reasonable thing to suppose,
> that
> > > we
> > > > > may
> > > > > > > > > become
> > > > > > > > > > > > > godlike.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yes it does explain a lot. You are just
> shallow,
> > > > > > > > > superficial,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > narrow-minded and a stick-in-the-mud.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And you're a big pee pee poo poo. Whatever.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In case you don't realize it (and I'm sure you
> don't),
> > > you
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > describing natural evolution and implying that God
> is a
> > > > > product
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > evolution (how can the product of a process occur
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > > beginning
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a process?). However, I happen to agree with you
> here:
> > > I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > goal of an intelligent species, once they can
> > > articluate
> > > > > it, is
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > become immortal, omniscient, omnipotent- all the
> > > attributes
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > one point attributed to deities. Deities are just
> > > primitive
> > > > > > > wish
> > > > > > > > > > > > > projections that cultures cling to long after
> they're
> > > shown
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > impossible. We make them up and give them the
> > > attributes
> > > > > we'd
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > have. With that in mind, it's kind of interesting
> that
> > > > > you're
> > > > > > > > > > > > > currently justifying the Christian God behaving
> like a
> > > > > sadistic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > monster in another thread.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/21/08, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 21, 10:28 am, "Keith MacNevins" <
> > > > > > > kmacnev...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just what makes you think God is not an
> > > > > extraterrestrial
> > > > > > > > > alien
> > > > > > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > happens
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to be a superior sentient being? What is the
> > > > > desination
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > humans?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hundred million years ( a teeny click in
> cosmic
> > > time
> > > > > )
> > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > suppose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > humans will evolve into? For instance,
> scientists
> > > say
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gradually
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > come to have only four toes on each foot, and
> > > perhaps
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > human
> > > > > > > > > > > > > brain
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > become larger and more advanced. And what
> else?
> > > Will
> > > > > we
> > > > > > > seed
> > > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > planets
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from aboard a huge space cruiser like an
> ocean
> > > liner
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > space?
> > > > > > > > > > > Won't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as gods ourselves?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you think travelling on ocean liners in
> space is
> > > > > what
> > > > > > > gods
> > > > > > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explains a lot, actually.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are better off sticking to your usual lame
> ad
> > > > > hominems
> > > > > > > > > rather
> > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > trying to have a normal conversation. That way
> > > others
> > > > > won't
> > > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your hilarious hallucinations.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/21/08, Bunta <pointst...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah ! I see I have your attention ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its always easy to go for the brain.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its always easy to accept God because its
> > > always
> > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there for you rest upon .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could believe in god , because
> > > everytime I
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > come
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up with somthing that I did not understand
> > > > > > > Scientifically,
> > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > otherwise,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could just say " Its was God that did it
> ! "
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every time there is some adversity in my
> life
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could just call upon the lord , maybe in
> a
> > > prayer
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > ask
> > > > > > > > > > > > > him
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > help me , and woosh ! its all fixed
> up. Bah
> > > !!!
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NOBODY !!!!! CAN CONVINCE ME THAT THERE IS
> A
> > > > > GOD......
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alright lets give God bashing a rest.
> What
> > > about
> > > > > > > Satan
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demons,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are they not also a part of "gods" kingdom
> ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you know , I am into the Alien thing ,
> and
> > > I
> > > > > hold
> > > > > > > > > > > strongly to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is it not feasible that when early
> believers
> > > of
> > > > > god ,
> > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unusual expierence
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that they just invented a Demon or decided
> to
> > > call
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > Satan or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whatever ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and what they were really having was a some
> > > sort of
> > > > > > > > > > > interaction
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an Alien .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bible ( and other ancient books ) is
> full
> > > of
> > > > > > > accounts
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > man
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > alien interaction , they just chose to call
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > some of them , the good ones, God, angels,
> > > > > prophets,
> > > > > > > jesus
> > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > miracles , and the ones that were perceived
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as bad or unexplainable , as satan or
> demonic
> > > or
> > > > > bad
> > > > > > > > > angels.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are all past thinking about God and
> Demons
> > > etc ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what we must look forward to, is what will
> > > happen
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > planet
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its present course of destruction,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > caused by " Man " .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bullshit !!!! no man, women ,or
> child, is
> > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > > responsible
> >
> > ...
> >
> > read more >>- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
> >
>

--
Ambassador From Hell

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Respect for the Dead
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/34fab947034fb8eb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 7:36 am
From: Evolved Atheist

I believe it is a wrong practice to block some space exclusively and
forever for a person after his death. Perhaps after many decades there
will not be any space left for the dead body burial.

Whole body donation is a good idea. Useful parts can be utilised. The
balance can go as biological waste. After all we are some 65% Oxygen,
18% Carbon, 10% Hydrogen, some nitrogen and other items. They all have
come from the nature and will go back to nature. Imagine what will
happen when the sun starts expanding. It is supposed to swallow the
earth. Where will your grave be at that time?

The next best to organ donation is cremation. What the sun is going to
do billions of years later will be done quickly by flames. Distribute
the ash wherever you feel like and be done with it.

But I am personally against burial. I was in Bogotá, Colombia, South
America, couple of years ago. A local cab driver showed us the
cemetery. And he joked that the place can be converted to an excellent
golf ground!.

I am told the christians believe that jesus christ is going to come
back and raise all the people from the grave. Is it really so?

On Apr 25, 12:44 pm, Jeffrey Drake <jptdr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am an atheist, who has a good friend who is a member of the
> Jehovah's Witnesses congregation of Christianity.
>
> We recently discussed graves. It was revealed that I engage in a form
> of Ancestor Worship, by treating a grave as something to respect. The
> reason is primarily for the living. I certainly don't believe in any
> afterlife, and fully expect my remains to be taken back by the earth.
>
> Conversely, he has quite different beliefs. To him, once a person is
> dead, its body doesn't matter. Having a picnic in a graveyard, over
> top of graves, would not matter to him. It would be of great concern
> to me. Even standing on top of a grave would be of concern to me.
>
> I would like to know what fellow atheists feel on this topic. Any
> perspectives that I have not explored?
>
> I am not looking for any kind of theological debate on this topic.
>
> With Regards,
> J. Drake.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 8:22 am
From: Medusa

Jeffrey;

> I am an atheist, who has a good friend who is a member of the
> Jehovah's Witnesses congregation of Christianity.
>
> We recently discussed graves. It was revealed that I engage in a form
> of Ancestor Worship, by treating a grave as something to respect. The
> reason is primarily for the living. I certainly don't believe in any
> afterlife, and fully expect my remains to be taken back by the earth.
>
> Conversely, he has quite different beliefs. To him, once a person is
> dead, its body doesn't matter. Having a picnic in a graveyard, over
> top of graves, would not matter to him. It would be of great concern
> to me. Even standing on top of a grave would be of concern to me.

Interesting question. I have heard that the Mexicans have a tradition
of doing just that; having a picnic on the graves of their ancestors.
They do it to honor the memory of the dead. In fact, November 1 is a
holiday devoted to dead people in Mexico.

I, too, have respect for the graves of my ancestors and anyone else.
I like to wander in old cemetaries just to look at the beautiful
monuments there, but I never walk on the graves. I know the dead have
returned to the earth, but I still treat the final resting place of a
person with respect. Maybe this is a hold-over from my childhood
training; my parents never let me go running around a cemetary. I
certainly don't believe in ghosts or spirits, but I still get a
feeling of peace that should not be disturbed in a graveyard.

Medusa

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 8:50 am
From: Trance Gemini

On Apr 25, 3:44 am, Jeffrey Drake <jptdr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am an atheist, who has a good friend who is a member of the
> Jehovah's Witnesses congregation of Christianity.
>
> We recently discussed graves. It was revealed that I engage in a form
> of Ancestor Worship, by treating a grave as something to respect. The
> reason is primarily for the living. I certainly don't believe in any
> afterlife, and fully expect my remains to be taken back by the earth.
>
> Conversely, he has quite different beliefs. To him, once a person is
> dead, its body doesn't matter. Having a picnic in a graveyard, over
> top of graves, would not matter to him. It would be of great concern
> to me. Even standing on top of a grave would be of concern to me.
>
> I would like to know what fellow atheists feel on this topic. Any
> perspectives that I have not explored?
>
> I am not looking for any kind of theological debate on this topic.
>
> With Regards,
> J. Drake.

My family cremates but special consideration is taken with the ashes
and a memorial ceremony is held.

The ashes are usually released somewhere that was special to the
person who died and released by the person closest to them either
privately or close family.

We don't have graves but some members have set up memorial stones in
cemeteries.

I do feel it's legitimate to show respect to those we loved and who
have died.

It has nothing to do with spirituality or religion, in my opinion.

It's just an expression of love for those we cared about when they
were alive and respect for our ancestors who came before us and are
the reason that we're here.

Nothing wrong with that.

I do treat graves and memorial sites with respect.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 8:57 am
From: Trance Gemini

On Apr 25, 11:50 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 25, 3:44 am, Jeffrey Drake <jptdr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I am an atheist, who has a good friend who is a member of the
> > Jehovah's Witnesses congregation of Christianity.
>
> > We recently discussed graves. It was revealed that I engage in a form
> > of Ancestor Worship, by treating a grave as something to respect. The
> > reason is primarily for the living. I certainly don't believe in any
> > afterlife, and fully expect my remains to be taken back by the earth.
>
> > Conversely, he has quite different beliefs. To him, once a person is
> > dead, its body doesn't matter. Having a picnic in a graveyard, over
> > top of graves, would not matter to him. It would be of great concern
> > to me. Even standing on top of a grave would be of concern to me.
>
> > I would like to know what fellow atheists feel on this topic. Any
> > perspectives that I have not explored?
>
> > I am not looking for any kind of theological debate on this topic.
>
> > With Regards,
> > J. Drake.
>
> My family cremates but special consideration is taken with the ashes
> and a memorial ceremony is held.
>
> The ashes are usually released somewhere that was special to the
> person who died and released by the person closest to them either
> privately or close family.
>
> We don't have graves but some members have set up memorial stones in
> cemeteries.
>
> I do feel it's legitimate to show respect to those we loved and who
> have died.
>
> It has nothing to do with spirituality or religion, in my opinion.
>
> It's just an expression of love for those we cared about when they
> were alive and respect for our ancestors who came before us and are
> the reason that we're here.
>
> Nothing wrong with that.
>
> I do treat graves and memorial sites with respect.

Re: the comments on organ donations. You can be a living donor as
well ;-).

Bone marrow, kidney, and partial liver transplants are always
desperately needed and organs from living donors have a longer
lifespan (don't know why) in the person receiving.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Proof Of God: Messengership
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/284256d44af0f043?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 8:31 am
From: Medusa

Waqasf;

> There has to be a god, because there is not one evidence but a swarm
> of evidence.

Haven't seen any yet. Your arguments are flimsy and false.

Medusa

==============================================================================
TOPIC: To all who sent there kind thoughts to my wife and my self Thank you.
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/133973c08a563dec?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 8:36 am
From: Medusa

Observer;

Best to both of you!

Medusa

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 8:43 am
From: Trance Gemini

On Apr 25, 1:38 am, Observer <mayors...@gmail.com> wrote:
> She is working diligently to get the use of her limbs restored as well
> as her speech.
> It will be a long steep climb but she is winning little by little.
> I have made important strides towards recovery and appreciate each and
> every day .
>
> Thanks again to all
>
> Psychonomist and Wife Lori.

Really happy to hear that you're both well on the road to recovery
Obs.

Best to both of you.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:31 am
From: "Keith MacNevins"

Ecclesiastes 8:13 But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall
he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before
God.

On 4/25/08, Observer <mayorskid@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> She is working diligently to get the use of her limbs restored as well
> as her speech.
> It will be a long steep climb but she is winning little by little.
> I have made important strides towards recovery and appreciate each and
> every day .
>
> Thanks again to all
>
> Psychonomist and Wife Lori.
> >
>

--
Ambassador From Hell

==============================================================================
TOPIC: A Fair Trial For Islam
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/ec5b967ae518938e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:03 am
From: Trance Gemini

On Apr 25, 1:11 am, ZonkTheBear <ZonkTheB...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ...and what annoys me the most is his dodging and one-liners for
> replies. How can he expect that anyone will take the time and effort
> to write serious posts to him when all he does is fling out a "i said
> "can be". " as a reply.
>
> I admire your patience with this guy, Trance. Keep it up.

It's called "flinging shit" and he's doing it with everyone.

He's just flinging more at me than you guys.

And my patience is rapidly running out! Lol.

>
> On 25 Apr, 02:13, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 24, 5:41 pm, ZonkTheBear <ZonkTheB...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 24 Apr, 22:21, xeno <69black...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 24, 12:38 pm, ZonkTheBear <ZonkTheB...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I respect what other people express if it is worth respecting.
>
> > > > your estimate on worth can be prejudical so if you don't take that
> > > > under consideration added with lack of empathy as well & act on that,
> > > > it's problematical.
>
> > > Now,that is what I call a comprehensive reply: One full sentrence, and
> > > even off topic... Please try again.
>
> > > You are obviously unable to discern between "respect" and "permit":
> > > I will _never_ stop anyone from expressing their opinion but no f* way
> > > do I have to respect it if I don't like it!
>
> > > And while you are at it: Do you respect the muslim view on stoning as
> > > a punishment? Or do you find it "prejudicial" of me to call it
> > > revolting?
>
> > > Or how about gang rape as punishment? Or public flogging? The killing
> > > of muslim apostates?
>
> > > I call these actions barbaric and inhuman and you can call me
> > > "prejudicial" all you like. I will not ask what you think of these
> > > actions since you obviously are not "prejudicial" as you claim me to
> > > be and therefor respect these actions due to your immense empathy...
>
> > > It's a good thing to be diplomatic but sometimes one has to call a
> > > spade a spade (it's an expression, please do not digress on it) and
> > > take a stand!
>
> > > You don't have the guts to have your own opinions; all you do is
> > > regurgitate some rote learning about "imperialism" and "great satan"
> > > and how the US is to blame for _everything_.
>
> > > Since you are so utterly reluctant to answer my questions and you
> > > barely bother to write more that one-liners for reply, I see no use in
> > > trying to keep this debate up (well, debate is perhaps an
> > > exaggeration) so I will instead leave you to your priggishness and
> > > hope that you learn something about reality when you grow up.
>
> > He's a "chicken-shit" atheist to use his own terms ;-)- Skjul sitert tekst -
>
> > - Vis sitert tekst -

==============================================================================
TOPIC: WHAT THE HUMAN SOUL LOOKS LIKE ...AND FUNCTIONS !!!!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/11ea21442ebeb9aa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:06 am
From: Trance Gemini

On Apr 25, 8:26 am, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> It make me feel nothing, because it's nothing to me, I have nothing to
> loose.
> You have everything to loose, now and after. so anjoy it

Ah. So you lied when you told me that you were here to practice your
spelling.

Isn't Lying a Sin, Daffy?

If you commit a Sin, Daffy, don't you burn in Hell?

>
> On Apr 24, 5:47 pm, Dev <thedevil...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > Spelling it correctly has no bearing on the length. Use two "V"s if it
> > makes you feel better.
>
> > On Apr 24, 9:54 am, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > you do understand it so it's still too short. anjoy it for now...
>
> > > On Apr 24, 4:40 pm, Dev <thedevil...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > > > Okay, dammit, let me try this. You obviously need an English tutor,
> > > > but let's start with this one thing.
>
> > > > "Live"--verb. Not a noun. "To live". Things can live, but there is no
> > > > such thing as a "live" that somebody has and spends misspelling
> > > > garbage on AvC.
> > > > "Life"--noun. This is the correct spelling. Instead of the "V", use
> > > > your spelling grade.
>
> > > > Fucktards, every last one of them...
>
> > > > On Apr 24, 9:32 am, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > the couriosity get the beter of you, it was not adressed to you is't.
> > > > > Dont you have anything else to do, get a live. And remamber live is
> > > > > too short.
>
> > > > > On Apr 24, 4:07 pm, floyd_1977 <floyd_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 24, 9:48 am, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Now if you'r smart, you can see what I was talking about before, you
> > > > > > > start to anveil it.
>
> > > > > > Only if you're smart, Dave, will you be able to understand what
> > > > > > manny is talking about.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pushups and haircuts for god
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/5688a192384494bb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:06 am
From: Brock

On Apr 24, 6:18 pm, wiseclam <wisec...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Re-read the original post. It's supposed to be funny, not a serious
> representation of Christian doctrine.

No Christian articulated such a position. Yet you allow yourself to
express that such a story articulates a "strong point about the truth
of Christianity". Which is why I noted (accurately):

You have joined ranks with such esteemed folks as rappoccio, scooter,
and the authors of "Tom Tomorrow"[1] in vying for the "sure, we know
its not their position, but we'll pretend they said it anyway and
react accordingly" award. :)

Regards,

Brock

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Expelled" Caught Again
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/67f48b90f290fb3d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:08 am
From: Trance Gemini

On Apr 25, 3:18 am, philosophy <smwil...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> Okay, I'll send you one.
> Just as an aside to Ranjit's comment. Different words certainly mean
> different things in different countries. I remember once I was
> talking to
> a sailor from the UK and it was raining. I told him we'd better get
> below
> deck before I got as wet as a shag. He was horrified.
> Shag in Auz just usually mens the bird called a shag. In the UK it
> means having sex. It can mean that here, too, but at the time I was
> too young to understand that. Oh well. Such is life?!

LMAO! Exactly Ranjit's point and the motivation behind my desire for a
list!

>
> On Apr 25, 11:22 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Cool! You'll have to send me a list of Aussie slang so I can practice
> > up!
>
> > On Apr 24, 7:38 pm, philosophy <smwil...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > Welcome aboard!!
>
> > > On Apr 25, 9:25 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Can I be an Honorary one? :-)
>
> > > > On Apr 24, 7:20 pm, philosophy <smwil...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > > > Oh, have a great ANZAC day to all the Aussies and New Zealanders!!
>
> > > > > On Apr 25, 2:29 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 24, 11:41 am, random <random.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 24, 2:27 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 7:16 am, random <random.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 2:07 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 1:25 am, random <random.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 7:44 am, rappoccio <rappoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > I totally agree. This battle is being fought in the political arena,
> > > > > > > > > > > > not the scientific one. At the end of the day, it's about what goes
> > > > > > > > > > > > into science classrooms in high school. That's ironic that they worry
> > > > > > > > > > > > about this so much because it shows who their target demograph is to
> > > > > > > > > > > > begin with: those that are less likely to be educated and/or
> > > > > > > > > > > > intelligent.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Their actual scientific case is abysmal. There's more evidence for the
> > > > > > > > > > > > Flying Spaghetti Monster than there is for creationism by an Abrahamic
> > > > > > > > > > > > God. They are routinely laughed at by the scientific community (and
> > > > > > > > > > > > rightly so, they're nutjobs). But what they are trying to do is to
> > > > > > > > > > > > form ideas in impressionable young minds that somehow belief in magic
> > > > > > > > > > > > is not only okay, but the only acceptable alternative.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I'm so in favor of getting the message of science and
> > > > > > > > > > > > reason out to young people and students. It's of paramount importance
> > > > > > > > > > > > and we're not strategically placing enough emphasis on this, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > that's why creationists seem to be gaining ground in the public.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Stupid people are telling young people how to be properly stupid and
> > > > > > > > > > > > vote stupidly. When we ignore this, it gets worse. So the best
> > > > > > > > > > > > strategy is, by far, to focus on the young.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > That sounds easy, but how?
> > > > > > > > > > > The thing that makes the movie successful as a propaganda tool, is the
> > > > > > > > > > > fact that it is full of misdirections, conspiracy theories, lot's of
> > > > > > > > > > > appeals to authority and endless comparisons to Nazis.
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry to say it, but science just isn't "sexy" enough. Even if you
> > > > > > > > > > > do make a movie that accurately describes evolution, how are you going
> > > > > > > > > > > to make a crowd stay awake during the movie?
> > > > > > > > > > > If the target audience are people who required a movie to know that
> > > > > > > > > > > eating McDonald 24-7 is unhealthy, how are you going to reach them
> > > > > > > > > > > with science?
>
> > > > > > > > > > There's some really funny anti-Creation clips on YouTube, Random.
>
> > > > > > > > > > That's the approach I'd take. They're hysterical and they do explain
> > > > > > > > > > the science in layman's terms as well as make fun of the Creationist
> > > > > > > > > > approach.
>
> > > > > > > > > Is it enough?
> > > > > > > > > Most layman explanations I've seen managed to explain the basics, but
> > > > > > > > > the more interesting questions are left unanswered unless you dig
> > > > > > > > > dipper into science.
>
> > > > > > > > > Unlike "Expelled", which relied on lack of knowledge, a movie about
> > > > > > > > > evolution shouldn't only present things as chewed food for the public,
> > > > > > > > > but should also encourage the viewers to go to the local library and
> > > > > > > > > start reading.
> > > > > > > > > Can it be done? Was it ever done before?
>
> > > > > > > > > > I tried to find them to give you an example, but the specific one's
> > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for don't seem to be there anymore.
>
> > > > > > > > > I'd love to see some of them.
>
> > > > > > > > Here's the first one ;-)
>
> > > > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY
>
> > > > > > > > The series is called Why do people laugh at Creationists.
>
> > > > > > > Good one, waiting for part 3 as I write this.
>
> > > > > > > But is it enough?
> > > > > > > Unfortunately, some mask their faith behind science better than the
> > > > > > > poor kid being laughed at here. And while it IS funny, I fear it will
> > > > > > > not be enough to discredit ID as a concept.
>
> > > > > > > Well, still fun, going for the next parts now. :-)
>
> > > > > > These guys clearly know how to use the political and propaganda
> > > > > > machinery to further their own ends.
>
> > > > > > We need to get on board and use it to spread the truth and expose the
> > > > > > disinformation.
>
> > > > > > What we need to do is get the Bill Gates and the Google guys on board
> > > > > > to provide the financing.
>
> > > > > > The Four Horsemen to handle the content.
>
> > > > > > Some solid atheists from the Movie Industry to produce, direct, write,
> > > > > > etc.
>
> > > > > > And produce a really good Satire.
>
> > > > > > That would be one step.
>
> > > > > > Anyone know Bill Gates or the Google guys? ;-)
>
> > > > > > Oh well <sigh>.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Best evidence/argument for the existence of God
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/460daa2926ff4915?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:10 am
From: Brock

On Apr 25, 9:49 am, wiseclam <wisec...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Thank you!

You're welcome. :)

Regards,

Brock

==============================================================================
TOPIC: AvC Chess challange!
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/fa43a8718df5158d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:17 am
From: Brock

On Apr 25, 9:35 am, Multiverse <cuta...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Brock v MV
>
> 25. ...c4 x e3

26. Bxc8

>
> On Apr 24, 5:35 pm, Brock <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 22, 6:29 pm, Multiverse <cuta...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > > Brock v MV
>
> > > 24. ...d6 c4
>
> > 25. Bg4
>
> > > my apologies it was a typo on my part.
>
> > > On Apr 22, 4:04 pm, "Brock Organ" <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Multiverse <cuta...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > Brock v MV
>
> > > > > 24. ...d8 c4
>
> > > > Hmmm ... I might've missed something, I didn't have a piece for you on
> > > > d8. Here's my game history, did I miss a move that you'd made
> > > > earlier? (apologies if I did):
>
> > > > 1. g3 e6
> > > > 2. Bg2 Nf6
> > > > 3. e4 Nc6
> > > > 4. c3 d5
> > > > 5. exd5 exd5
> > > > 6. Qe2+ Be7
> > > > 7. d4 O-O
> > > > 8. Nf3 Bf5
> > > > 9. O-O Re8
> > > > 10. Nbd2 Bd6
> > > > 11. Qd1 Qd7
> > > > 12. Ng5 h6
> > > > 13. Nh3 Bxh3
> > > > 14. Bf3 Bxf1
> > > > 15. Nxf1 Ne7
> > > > 16. b4 c6
> > > > 17. a3 Rad8
> > > > 18. Ra2 Bc7
> > > > 19. Nd2 Nf5
> > > > 20. Nb3 Re7
> > > > 21. Nc5 Qc8
> > > > 22. h3 Rde8
> > > > 23. Nd3 Nd6
> > > > 24. Be3
>
> > > > Regards,
>
> > > > Brock- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

==============================================================================
TOPIC: A New Earth: The New Age Church Of Oprah Winfrey That Denies Jesus
Christ
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/980509639d91367e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:25 am
From: "yarrido@aol.com"

On Apr 24, 3:07 pm, random <random.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 24, 9:18 pm, "yarr...@aol.com" <yarr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>

>
> > I think you misunderstand the kind of torture we are talking about.
> > The physical pain that Christ suffered was nothing compared to taking
> > on the sins of each one of us. Consider for a moment, if you will,
> > someone who knew no sin...someone who is to pure to evenlookupon
> > evil....someone who for all his existence has never and could never
> > tolerated evil, because he is absolutely perfectly good. Can you even
> > begin to imagine a being like that taking on every single evil that
> > has ever been perpetrated onto himself. Think of how you and I recoil
> > at some of the evils that this world has served up in the past and
> > then imagine how much more such a perfectly good being would be
> > effected by having to actually take them on himself on our behalf.
>
> That makes even less sense.
> Taking someone else's punishment is usually absurd.

Unless motivated by love for that person.

<>>> You won't hear of
> any judge that will allow you to get in jail instead of your son.

That judge is not the father of your son....he's not family.

> Taking someones sins is even worse since it's not something that you
> can take away.

You are correct, this is not possible for a human being. It is only
possible for God.

>>You can decide someone didn't sin, you can decide to
> forgive someone for the sin, but how can you take it away, and what's
> the purpose of giving it to someone else?

There was no giving it to someone else. Jesus willingly took them on
himself. His personal choice motivated by love for each one of us.
Both Jesus and His father being of one essence, participated in the
redemptive work on the cross. You cannot say that the Father tortured
his Son because the Father also participated in the experience and was
the recipient of said same.

It is like I said later in this post. The example I gave was that of
the peanut allergy. You need to be cured of that in order to enjoy
God's gift of eternal life(heaven) without injury. Sin is the disorder
that must be taken away. There was a transaction that took place some
two thousand years ago, where Christ took on our sins, but at the same
time offered his righteousness to those who would trust Him with their
eternal welfare. The resurrection punctuates and validates his ability
to deliver on his promise. The fact that many of his followers
followed him to the point of death, serves as a powerful illustration
of the truth of the events that took place. These were eyewitnesses
that were convinced that he did indeed raise himself from the dead. If
they knew that the resurrection was nothing more than a lie, they
would not have refused to deny the fact to the point of death. Who, in
his right mind, would not renounce a lie to save his own life? There
is no indication that those who were killed for their beliefs were in
any way psychologically impaired.

>
> > > If you think it is, explain is simple words who benefits from person A
> > > suffering for a crime person B committed.
>
> > You, yourself, are obviously someone who is interested in justice
> > being done and you are not always just yourself....well, neither am I.
>
> No argument here.
>
> > Now, suppose that you were the judge and you had before you someone
> > who is without a single shred of doubt guilty of a crime. You will be
> > the one who is passing judgment on what is clearly a guilty man. The
> > man shows genuine repentance for the crime he has committed, but the
> > law and your sense of justice demands that the man pay for the crime
> > he has committed.
>
> But suppose I'm also the one making the rules.

If you are, then those rules are dictated by your sense of and
understanding of justice. God would have a perfect understanding and a
perfect sense of justice. Could either one of us say the same thing?

>Suppose I can chose to
> forgive if the guilty man shows real remorse.

Of course you could, but God does not have the moral freedom that we
as men enjoy. His nature demands that perfect justice be satisfied....

> Why would I need to transfer it?

That is why the transaction that took place, had to take place.

> And from all people, why would I choose the only sinless man on earth
> to suffer?

He chose himself. Please keep in mind that Christians are not
polytheistic. Jesus of Nazareth, himself, stated that "I and the
father are one." It was one being that chose the only path to solve
the dilemma of having to satisfy both aspects of His nature...that of
being a perfectly just God and that of being a good and merciful God.
Both justice and mercy had to be dispensed through this transaction
that took place on Golgotha. Does not God have the right to be
generous if he choses to be as long as it does not violate his just
nature or his loving and merciful nature? Within man's legal system,
the two cannot coexist, but that is because our legal system is not
perfect. God is.

>
> > What if, instead of dispensing justice, you extend
> > mercy. There is a problem here. You are a just man and your sense of
> > justice demands that payment for the crime be made. You are also a
> > loving and merciful judge that doesn't want to cause suffering for a
> > genuinely changed and repentant man. What is the solution to your
> > dilemma? To both satisfy justice and mercy, you chose to take the
> > punishment yourself and extend mercy to the guilty, if they accept
> > your solution.
>
> Or, I set the rules to include intentions, remorse and motives.
> Judges today to exactly that, and it sure makes more sense to reduce
> someone's sentence for good behavior instead of reducing it while
> looking for an innocent man to toss into jail to makeup the justice.
>
> > We have crimes in this world for which there are judicial systems in
> > place to deal with them. I am sure that you agree that those who break
> > the legal code of this land should be subject to the penalties those
> > legal codes proscribe for those crimes.
> > If one is guilty of moral crimes, should not the gulty also be held
> > accountable for them? Being a man with a sense of justice, I am
> > certain that you would respond with the affirmative.
>
> Depends on which moral crimes, and on the punishment you want to set
> on them.
> If someone is full of hate, I'd like to see society treat him as an
> outcast to some degree (that's usually the result of breaking a moral
> code), but if he didn't actually DO something with this hate, I
> wouldn't dream about restricting his freedom,letalone eternal hell.
>
>
>
>
>
> > I think that
>
> > > We already have a recent thread just for that topic, called " Why not
> > > just give the donuts away, no strings attached?".
>
> > I would change that to read "Why not just give peanuts away, no
> > strings attached?" The problem is that some folks are extremely
> > allergic to peanuts and this is a disorder that must first be removed
> > before that person can reasonably be expected to enjoy the gift that
> > is being offered or even want it for that matter. The gift of heaven
> > would be poison without the removal of the disorder of sin and the
> > Great Physician, himself, has provided the cure for that.
>
> > The truth is that the donuts have indeed been payed for and they are
> > freely offered, but there is more to the story than just that....that
> > is why the donuts falls somewhat short of describing the situation we
> > face. It is just a bit more complicated.
>
> The question of why pay for the donuts is a complex question.
> But the question here is a lot more simple in it's absurdity, why
> should someone else pay for the donuts, when there is no profit to
> anyone in letting him pay?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "FREE WILL?"
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/0cdfd88f8956c861?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:27 am
From: hopeforpeace687

google this author Masaru Emoto, Then read the bible Its incredibly
eye opening

On Apr 25, 9:20 am, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 25, 2:25 am, Lawrey <lawrenc...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > Do we really have a free
> > will?
>
> Yes.
>
> All those things you mentioned are INFLUENCES, not causes. Those
> things INFLUENCE our thoughts, not cause them.
>
> Here: learn about Compatibilism:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

==============================================================================
TOPIC: View this page "Thomas Aquinas' Five Fallacies"
http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/27d8d35a6d0bf1ee?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:32 am
From: Simpleton

On Apr 25, 3:58 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then what is the point of the argument? If not all things must have a
> cause, then why must there be a first cause?
>

For special pleading. Try and keep up, D Man!

(I sense another set of redefinitions a-coming: cause, causality,
first, father, son...)

==============================================================================
TOPIC:

http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/?hl=en
==============================================================================

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Atheism vs Christianity

Friday, April 25, 2008

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